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Ok, two case studies rolled up into one convenient package! Well, sort of. It is all based on the same tale, but two forum members commented on this, so double the case study pleasure! Themuz just examines one small section of the story which he thinks is a major problem, while Flame gives a full-blown case study of the whole thing - a good man.

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'''Octagonal's comments in BOLD'''

Other forum members' comments in PLAIN TEXT

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Original Text:

'''Ok, I am an IW. I need someone to give me the equivalent of a punch to the throat in advice. There's no excuse after reading LT, but still I persist. Read on...''' 

'''There's a girl in my work who I am into. She has a b/f and has done for about 15 years. She's 36, I'm 27 (fuck you I know it's fucked I'm still like this at my age, but I've got my reasons which I'll divulge another day). I've worked with her for about 2 years.''' 

'''During that time we've built up a really good friendship. The thing is, I want her as my g/f. She's funny, intelligent, pretty - the whole package. It takes a lot for me to really fall for someone, but I have.''' 

'''I've never let her know this, but harmlessly flirted and gave her compliments. This is painfully IW, but I used to say her clothes/hair looked lovely and even said to her "You're one of the nicest girls I've worked with" and "You're really funny, could listen to you all night". (it's all true, btw)''' 

'''I know, I know. As I said - punch in the throat required. (BTW, I've stopped doing all that after finding this place at the turn of the year and realising how futile it is).''' 

'''It gets worse. She's said the following - "I'll be your big sister, I'll look out for you", "You're like a brother to me". For fuck sake! How IW can I get?''' 

'''Anyway, after finding this place I've been cruder / cockier with her (and all the girls in work) and have started being a bit more aloof and make neg hits etc. I've always made her laugh (she comments on this constantly and gives me other little compliments as well) but now I do it with a bit of cruelty.''' 

'''And she's responded as expected. The more I ignore, the more she wants me to be IW. All standard stuff. The thing is now we've been out for drinks about 5 or 6 times either at lunchtime or after work. Alone.''' 

'''Every time I think to myself - she's pimping you (even though it's normally me asking her out). Don't be a fucking idiot. But I always think I can turn it round. Who knows, maybe I can..nah, who I am kidding.''' 

'''The last time was fri night after work, the classic. We were supposed to be going out with another girl we worked with and my brother.''' 

'''But they pulled out. So I said to her in an email at work "They can't make it. I'd go with you, but don't want you getting me drunk and taking advantage".''' 

'''She replies "I was looking forward to that as well (haha)".''' 

'''I really thought, right - don't be a dick and go along again hoping something's going to happen. That's why I made the joke - I really wasn't going, weakly trying to untangle myself.''' 

'''But then she comes up to me at my desk and says - "We can go, just for one drink - right?" I was surprised, but obviously pleased. How could I resist? I said, "I'll think about it. I need to work late". She asked how late, and then said "I can wait til then"..''' 

'''So she did, and we went out again. We sit and have a right laugh, me trying (and succeeding I think) to be cocky and funny. I even press my legs against hers under the table and she does the same when I pull away. I know this is minor but it's good for me...''' 

'''So, I think I am doing well. I even bring up relationships in an attempt to ruin her image of her boyfriend. I talk about people in work who are having probs with their husbands and I say "See that's why it doesn't matter how long you are with someone, they can just dump you at the drop of a hat. You've got to think about your own happiness and make a separate life for yourself. It's the only way to protect yourself and it also ensures you have fun."''' 

'''She says with a cynical smile "Are you trying to say something about me and..." - I say "No, I'm sure you're very happy, it's just an observation about relationships in general. You get in a rut. I'm sure you know what I mean? (she nods). See, life is about challenging yourself and seizing the moment".''' 

'''I then go on about all the recent stuff i've been doing, such as taking up cycling, learning an instrument and I am thinking of joining a martial arts class (all true). She seems responsive, energised by this.''' 

'''But I think I also activated the ASD / guilt. She says we better go after the next one - but we talk for another 30mins, laughing again but still talking about life and how to be content.''' 

'''So she says "I better go, don't want to go home drunk". Just as we are leaving I say the stupidest things, as I'm a little annoyed at her and myself. "Yeah, your boyfriend will be sending out the search party". Then "Does he know you go out drinking with strange men from work anyway? I'd be pissed off if I was him".''' 

'''No response. So we walk down the road towards our different subway / train stations. I think the ASDs come out again - "Well, it was a real pity the others couldn't make it". (obviously thinking about being out with a "strange man" alone after my comment).''' 

'''I just say, "Well I enjoyed myself". We say goodbye and part ways.''' 

'''I know this follows the classic IW pattern. I am acting like a b/f without her repaying me in kind. She's got it made! What a fool I am. Wasting this precious time and energy. Developing oneitis for someone I'm not even going out with!''' 

'''But still I delude myself - you have a chance. Even after all this time. I don't even think she is being a bitch about it, I've never told her how I feel. She probably just thinks I am a nice guy, a brother to her as she says.''' 

'''It's up to me to stop it. To next! Please flame me / cyber-throat punch to help with the process.''' 

'''Thanks.'''

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themuz's comments:

Actually, I bet you coulda laid her that night. Just a thought. 

It would have taken a drastic change in parts of your attitude and risk-taking actions to get that result, tho. 

Octagonal said: '''She says with a cynical smile "Are you trying to say something about me and..." - I say "No, I'm sure you're very happy, it's just an observation about relationships in general. You get in a rut. I'm sure you know what I mean? (she nods). See, life is about challenging yourself and seizing the moment".'''

This was a big turning point, I bet it's where it all started to fall apart that night. Here is why: 

Cynical smile + her words = she's probably interested in where you are going with this, has read through your message, now wants some validation as to why she would want to do anything with you and ditch her boy. 

You reply by saying, (more or less) '''"No, no, ya got me all wrong! You're in a rut (this would help activate ASD, because now she is just thinking 'Hmm, maybe it IS just a rut.. This connection I THOUGHT I had with him - well, he is saying 'No' to it - I don't want to be a slut and sleep around if it's just rough times..')! Ya know? See, life is all about challenging yourself and seizing the moment (to which you did not, even though on the outside it looks like you did)"'''

Some of that text was good, especially seizing the moment, blah blah blah. 

But.. You stretched your neck out, but then immediately pulled back into your shell by saying 'No, I'm sure you're very happy, ignore everything you were feeling for me'. At least that's what I get out of it. 

I know I say I complement the BFs usually, but I would NEVER complement the RELATIONSHIP. The boyfriend is irrelevant, the relationship is the part that will stop a girl from banging you til your ears bleed. 

You did not challenge yourself because even though you've had leg touching (minor-to-medium level kino, IMO, depending on the situation), you're not taking it to the next level (kissing her, or anything involving risk would be good at this point!) 

You probably should have said something more like, *lean in a little, small smile on your face, not too much tho - a COMFORTABLE smile* "Look, all I'm saying is that everyone has to start thinking for themselves and acting how they want to, from the heart, instead of using their head and letting things get all mixed up in there. The easiest answer is the one you feel." 

You can't just SAY something like that, either. You have to act like you feel it completely. Change facial expressions to match the words and the feelings you want to carry over. If she starts getting caught up in that stuff, then you're in. 

You'd be banging her if you started saying things like that at the right time, I bet.

A NEXT is a good idea in this case. It will all work out from there. (not saying youll get with her, that's not what a NEXT is about, but you would be able to devote your time and newly-learned behavior to other chicks who you didnt mess up with. Working on one you fucked up with is an effort that is not only futile, but makes you look bad to everyone else around at the time.)

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Flame's comments:

Quote:
'''There's a girl in my work who I am into. She has a b/f and has done for about 15 years. She's 36, I'm 27 (fuck you I know it's fucked I'm still like this at my age, but I've got my reasons which I'll divulge another day). I've worked with her for about 2 years.'''

Okay 

Quote:
'''During that time we've built up a really good friendship. The thing is, I want her as my g/f. She's funny, intelligent, pretty - the whole package. It takes a lot for me to really fall for someone, but I have.'''

This is bad. You are falling into the classic AFC/weak/IW-ish trap of imagining a relationship with a girl before anything has even happend. 

The problem with this is that it reflects your inner lack of power, independence, confidence, and CHOICE. You are already JUMPING THE GUN and acting like this girl is the shit, EVEN THOUGH you have not even kissed her or fucked her yet. (Addition to this point by themuz: One way you may want to look at it is that you don't even know if she's good in bed! How crappy would that be if you built this girl up to be soooo amaaaazing in your head, only to find out she has a tongue and vagina like sandpaper?)

A sexual relationship should be contemplated/begins AFTER YOU GUYS HAVE ALREADY HAD SEX OR OTHERWISE GOTTEN INTIMATE. 

Anything before that is just weak daydreaming, which will only complicate matters and fuck you up. 

Quote:
'''I've never let her know this, but harmlessly flirted and gave her compliments. This is painfully IW, but I used to say her clothes/hair looked lovely and even said to her "You're one of the nicest girls I've worked with" and "You're really funny, could listen to you all night". (it's all true, btw)'''

Weak weak weak weak weak. 

Not only are those compliments cheesy as fuck, you in no way differentiated yourself. 

Quote:
'''It gets worse. She's said the following - "I'll be your big sister, I'll look out for you", "You're like a brother to me". For fuck sake! How IW can I get?'''

This is not always bad, cuz you can always flip the script and reframe it: "Yeah, you definitely would make a great big sis. I wouldn't want you as a gf" or whatever. 

However, in this case, these lines are just reflective of how she views you (as an asexual family member), so yeah... sucks. 

Quote:
'''Anyway, after finding this place I've been cruder / cockier with her (and all the girls in work) and have started being a bit more aloof and make neg hits etc. I've always made her laugh (she comments on this constantly and gives me other little compliments as well) but now I do it with a bit of cruelty.'''

'''And she's responded as expected. The more I ignore, the more she wants me to be IW. All standard stuff. The thing is now we've been out for drinks about 5 or 6 times either at lunchtime or after work. Alone.'''

Okay. Just remember, you don't have to be CRUEL per se. Just independent... like you have better shit to do/think about and none of this really matters. 

Quote:
'''The last time was fri night after work, the classic. We were supposed to be going out with another girl we worked with and my brother.''' 

'''But they pulled out. So I said to her in an email at work "They can't make it. I'd go with you, but don't want you getting me drunk and taking advantage".''' 

'''She replies "I was looking forward to that as well (haha)".'''

This is just her being a woman... in other words, just teasing and flaunting her sexuality. Ignore this. 

Instead, you give a chump response and/or jump at the merest hint of sexuality. True pimps don't even BLINK at this behavior. 

Quote:
'''I really thought, right - don't be a dick and go along again hoping something's going to happen. That's why I made the joke - I really wasn't going, weakly trying to untangle myself.''' 

'''But then she comes up to me at my desk and says - "We can go, just for one drink - right?" I was surprised, but obviously pleased. How could I resist? I said, "I'll think about it. I need to work late". She asked how late, and then said "I can wait til then"..'''

You did the right thing in going out. Nothing to lose and being friendly is always good. But if you really didnt want to go, you shouldn't have. 

Quote:
'''So she did, and we went out again. We sit and have a right laugh, me trying (and succeeding I think) to be cocky and funny. I even press my legs against hers under the table and she does the same when I pull away. I know this is minor but it's good for me...'''

Once again, just her flaunting her sexuality. Don't be so eager to respond. 

Quote:
'''So, I think I am doing well. I even bring up relationships in an attempt to ruin her image of her boyfriend. I talk about people in work who are having probs with their husbands and I say "See that's why it doesn't matter how long you are with someone, they can just dump you at the drop of a hat. You've got to think about your own happiness and make a separate life for yourself. It's the only way to protect yourself and it also ensures you have fun."'''

This was the beginning of your major mistakes. 

NEVER EVER BRING UP THE BOYFRIEND OR EVEN MAKE THE SLIGHTEST MENTION/REFERENCE TO HIM UNLESS SHE SHE SHEEEEE BRINGS IT UP FIRST. 

I could've fucking SWORN I wrote a huge post about this in my anti-bf technique post. 

You DO NOT bring up the bf. When you are alone with a chick, you do not mention or even HINT at ANYTHING that might bring up the bf. He does NOT exist. You shouldn't be thinking about SABOTAGING anything. You just run your game. All that exists is just YOU and HER. No bf. No need to bring it up. 

No good can come of YOU bring up the bf first. SHE will bring him up at the right time, and you deal with it THEN. NOT BEFORE. 

Early birds do not get the worm in this game. Smart, chill, confident birds get the worm. Chill back. When difficulties arise, THEN you deal. Don't try pre-emptive shit. That's just needy. 

Quote:
'''She says with a cynical smile "Are you trying to say something about me and..." - I say "No, I'm sure you're very happy, it's just an observation about relationships in general. You get in a rut. I'm sure you know what I mean? (she nods). See, life is about challenging yourself and seizing the moment".'''

You were backpedaling HARD and she could SMELL THAT SHIT. 

When you talk, BELIEVE in your words, even if they are bullshit. Never backpedal or excuse yourself with words like "In general" or "I'm just trying to say" or "I mean...." 

What you say, what you do, what you exude is who you are. Don't back down. 

Quote:
'''I then go on about all the recent stuff i've been doing, such as taking up cycling, learning an instrument and I am thinking of joining a martial arts class (all true). She seems responsive, energised by this.'''

Good. 

Quote:
'''But I think I also activated the ASD / guilt. She says we better go after the next one - but we talk for another 30mins, laughing again but still talking about life and how to be content.''' 

'''So she says "I better go, don't want to go home drunk". Just as we are leaving I say the stupidest things, as I'm a little annoyed at her and myself. "Yeah, your boyfriend will be sending out the search party". Then "Does he know you go out drinking with strange men from work anyway? I'd be pissed off if I was him".'''

BAD. Once again, why bring up the bf? SHE hasn't mentioned it... why should you? Unless you are insecure/scared and want to deal with this massive ogre in the closet? Too bad she can SMELL the insecurity. 

The ogre doesn't exist until SHE brings it up, okay? 

Quote:
'''No response. So we walk down the road towards our different subway / train stations. I think the ASDs come out again - "Well, it was a real pity the others couldn't make it". (obviously thinking about being out with a "strange man" alone after my comment).'''

Sucks. She is no longer thinking about the two of you, but how much better it would've been if the others had come along. Bad. 

Quote:
'''I just say, "Well I enjoyed myself". We say goodbye and part ways.'''

That was a good way to end the night. No dramatics. No bullshit. "Pleasure" and gone. 

Quote:
'''I know this follows the classic IW pattern. I am acting like a b/f without her repaying me in kind. She's got it made! What a fool I am. Wasting this precious time and energy. Developing oneitis for someone I'm not even going out with!''' 

'''But still I delude myself - you have a chance. Even after all this time. I don't even think she is being a bitch about it, I've never told her how I feel. She probably just thinks I am a nice guy, a brother to her as she says.'''

I'll be honest. You're in damage control. I mean, it definitely could've been worse... but also could've been a lot better. For now, just play it cool and don't initiate shit unless she's begging you to go out for drinks again.

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There you have it, two case studies in one, sort of. I'm sure every IW out there can relate a little with our gentleman having difficulties in the forums. Everyone who reads this stuff at least once KNOWS what they should do - it is just a matter of having the balls to put it into action. Remember, half of the battle is in YOUR head.

[[User:Themuz|themuz]] 21:17, 19 August 2006 (PDT)