IWs are manipulative
From Ladder Wiki
[edit] IWs are manipulative
The following is what Flame and BD have to say on the subject.
If you think about it though.... most nice guy IWs ARE being manipulative. They just don't realize it themselves.
Look at it this way: they have all these beliefs that if a guy is understanding, nice, is a friend first, supplicative... this will get him the girl. So he does it.
Not in the active, calculating way that we apply tactics and principles here... but the general vibe is the same. Most nice guys think "She wouldn't be into me if I was overly cocky/sexual so I'm going to be nice and understanding." They THINK they're being true to themselves, but really, they're taking the information and ideals put forth by popular media, friends, whatever (all of which is telling them to be the nice guy to get the girl) and using that information to try to win the girl.
Girls usually DON'T recognize this, but most truly hot girls I've found understand this to one degree or another. That's why a lot of hotties will be NICE and FRIENDLY and have a lot of IWs, but they understand (even if it's subconsciously) what the guy actually wants, and they will never let it get that far.
Yes, being a, "nice-guy," IW is TOTALLY manipulative. It's a very passive-aggressive way to get what he wants. He secretly thinks that if he's just NICE enough, SUPPLICATIVE enough, then the girl will have NO CHOICE but to fuck/have sex/have romantic feelings for him.
The problem is, that is a LOGICAL exchange of goods. In reality, honest attraction is a biological/reptilian/limbic part of our brain. There is no logic--it is animal. Trying to get an animal response from a logical proposition forces the issue and is VERY passive/aggressive. I don't blame girls who think IW guys like that are creepy.
Think about it this way: Let's say you're walking down the street. Maybe in a marketplace, but you really don't have any intention to buy anything. Then, a guy comes up to you and apparently, "gives you" an item that you had NO INTENTION of purchasing. Hell, you weren't even looking in his store!!!
So now the guy gives you the item, you think it's pretty odd, but to be polite and not break social conventions you say thank-you, take the item, and continue walking down the street.
Then two blocks later, the SAME guy shows up and says, "OK, that will be $50 please." And you are like, "WTF?" You didn't even WANT the item in the fist-place. He FORCED it into your arms, INSISTED that you keep it, and that it was for free. So to avoid awkwardness, you accepted. Now he wants to CHARGE YOU for that same item?
100% Bullshit.
When an IW is doing nice things to a girl and secretly expects something in return (typically sexual attraction), that is the SAME manipulative passive/aggressive dynamic that is going on in the situation that I just described.
The real way to respect a woman is--if you find her attractive, flirt w/ her (in a non-sleazy/non-offensive way), from DAY ONE. Don't deceive her about your eventual intentions. Be a man, be attracted, and don't be embarrassed to admit it.
